QAR: Click Here
Conditions for approval required by: Julien Gauther
Certification of Aerospace Products to international quality Standards
Certification of Aerospace Products to international quality Standards
Form restricted to registered, logged in users. Please return to the home page and use the Create Account option.
QTR – EN3820-030012F:
Clause 2:
EN3820 latest issue is EN3820:2017. Is there any major difference between this issue and issue mentioned in QTR (EN3820 issue 07/2006)?
AMS4967 latest issue is revision M. Is there any major difference between this issue and issue mentioned in QTR (AMS4967 revision K)?
Material certificate is compliant to AMS4967 revision L (May 2014).
For ISO3452, do we speak about ISO 3452-1:2013, Corrected version 2014-05-01?
Qualification by analogy:
Bolts with no hole shall qualify bolt with lockwire holes, split pin holes and both of them if we consider mechanical, metallurgical and non-destructive tests. What about supplementary dimensions due to holes?
On Acceptance Test Report, 5000 parts have been ordered.
What is the manufacturing batch size? Apparently, mfg batch quantity should be a little bit greater than 5000.
For dimensions check, 45 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
ISO9152, table 3 specifies three different AQLs for dimension characteristics: 1%, 2,5% and 4%.
If we consider a mfg batch of 5000 parts:
Sample size for AQL 1% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 5 / Rejection number = 6)
Sample size for AQL 2,5% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 10 / Rejection number = 11)
Sample size for AQL 4% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 14 / Rejection number = 15)
See ISO9152, tables 3 and 4.
QTR – EN3381-080012AF:
For ISO3452, do we speak about ISO 3452-1:2013, Corrected version 2014-05-01?
Bolts with no hole shall qualify bolt with holes if we consider mechanical, metallurgical and non-destructive tests. What about supplementary dimensions due to holes?
On Acceptance Test Report, 200 parts have been ordered.
What is the manufacturing batch size? Apparently, mfg batch quantity should be a little bit greater than 200.
For dimensions check, 40 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
For FPI, 50 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
ISO9152, table 3 specifies four different AQLs for characteristics: 0,065% for FPI and 1%, 2,5% and 4% for dimensions.
If we consider a mfg batch of 200 parts:
Sample size for AQL 0,065% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 0 / Rejection number = 1)
Sample size for AQL 1% = 50 parts (Acceptance number = 1 / Rejection number = 2)
Sample size for AQL 2,5% = 32 parts (Acceptance number = 2 / Rejection number = 3)
Sample size for AQL 4% = 32 parts (Acceptance number = 3 / Rejection number = 4)
See ISO9152, tables 3 and 4.
Many thanks in advance for replying.
Have a nice day.
Julien
EN3820-030 :
EN3820 latest issue is EN3820:2017. Is there any major difference between this issue and issue mentioned in QTR (EN3820 issue 07/2006)?
ANSWER: Presently, we use internally the last version of this standard. It is a copy/paste mistake. Furthermore, thank to our impact study, we did not detect any major modification. Can be updated if necessary.
AMS4967 latest issue is revision M. Is there any major difference between this issue and issue mentioned in QTR (AMS4967 revision K)? Material certificate is compliant to AMS4967 revision L (May 2014).
ANSWER: Presently, we use internally the last version of this standard. It is a copy/paste mistake. Furthermore, thank to our impact study, we did not detect any major modification. Can be updated if necessary.
For ISO3452, do we speak about ISO 3452-1:2013, Corrected version 2014-05-01?
ANSWER: There are two dates in our version of this standard (see picture below). We wrote the first date and you the second but it seems we have the same standard.
Bolts with no hole shall qualify bolt with lockwire holes, split pin holes and both of them if we consider mechanical, metallurgical and non-destructive tests. What about supplementary dimensions due to holes?
Those features are not available for this diameter. This sentence is a copy/paste mistake of your past QTR.
On Acceptance Test Report, 5000 parts have been ordered.
What is the manufacturing batch size? Apparently, mfg batch quantity should be a little bit greater than 5000.
For dimensions check, 45 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
ISO9152, table 3 specifies three different AQLs for dimension characteristics: 1%, 2,5% and 4%.
If we consider a mfg batch of 5000 parts:
Sample size for AQL 1% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 5 / Rejection number = 6)
Sample size for AQL 2,5% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 10 / Rejection number = 11)
Sample size for AQL 4% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 14 / Rejection number = 15)
See ISO9152, tables 3 and 4.
ANSWER: The certificate of conformity was only indicative because the batch was sold to a supplier without ASD-CERT qualification.
Concerning the qualification, the sampling is in compliance to the ISO9152.
EN3381-080:
For ISO3452, do we speak about ISO 3452-1:2013, Corrected version 2014-05-01?
ANSWER: There are two dates in our version of this standard (see picture below). We wrote the first date and you the second but it seems we have the same standard.
Bolts with no hole shall qualify bolt with holes if we consider mechanical, metallurgical and non-destructive tests. What about supplementary dimensions due to holes?
ANSWER: The choice of the worst case was realized to maximized the number of tests perform on the part during the qualification. Some features can remove some mechanical tests for example.
Furthermore, all the previous qualifications were validated with this kind of analogy.
On Acceptance Test Report, 200 parts have been ordered.
What is the manufacturing batch size? Apparently, mfg batch quantity should be a little bit greater than 200.
For dimensions check, 40 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
For FPI, 50 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
ISO9152, table 3 specifies four different AQLs for characteristics: 0,065% for FPI and 1%, 2,5% and 4% for dimensions.
If we consider a mfg batch of 200 parts:
Sample size for AQL 0,065% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 0 / Rejection number = 1)
Sample size for AQL 1% = 50 parts (Acceptance number = 1 / Rejection number = 2)
Sample size for AQL 2,5% = 32 parts (Acceptance number = 2 / Rejection number = 3)
Sample size for AQL 4% = 32 parts (Acceptance number = 3 / Rejection number = 4)
See ISO9152, tables 3 and 4.
ANSWER: The certificate of conformity was only indicative because the batch was sold to a supplier without ASD-CERT qualification.
Concerning the qualification, the sampling is in compliance to the ISO9152.
Concerning the control of the optional features, they are controled in position and dimension in compliance with the standard in case of production batch. For example, for Split pin hole on EN3381 standard, AHG laboratory control the diameter (D6) and the position (L5).
Hello Gérôme,
Thank you for replying.
Please see my answers below:
EN3820-030 :
EN3820 latest issue is EN3820:2017. Is there any major difference between this issue and issue mentioned in QTR (EN3820 issue 07/2006)?
ANSWER: Presently, we use internally the last version of this standard. It is a copy/paste mistake. Furthermore, thank to our impact study, we did not detect any major modification. Can be updated if necessary.
? Yes, please, thank you.
AMS4967 latest issue is revision M. Is there any major difference between this issue and issue mentioned in QTR (AMS4967 revision K)? Material certificate is compliant to AMS4967 revision L (May 2014).
ANSWER: Presently, we use internally the last version of this standard. It is a copy/paste mistake. Furthermore, thank to our impact study, we did not detect any major modification. Can be updated if necessary.
? Yes, please, thank you. (according to issue used)
For ISO3452, do we speak about ISO 3452-1:2013, Corrected version 2014-05-01?
ANSWER: There are two dates in our version of this standard (see picture below). We wrote the first date and you the second but it seems we have the same standard.
? Agreed.
Bolts with no hole shall qualify bolt with lockwire holes, split pin holes and both of them if we consider mechanical, metallurgical and non-destructive tests. What about supplementary dimensions due to holes?
Those features are not available for this diameter. This sentence is a copy/paste mistake of your past QTR.
? Agreed.
On Acceptance Test Report, 5000 parts have been ordered.
What is the manufacturing batch size? Apparently, mfg batch quantity should be a little bit greater than 5000.
For dimensions check, 45 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
ISO9152, table 3 specifies three different AQLs for dimension characteristics: 1%, 2,5% and 4%.
If we consider a mfg batch of 5000 parts:
Sample size for AQL 1% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 5 / Rejection number = 6)
Sample size for AQL 2,5% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 10 / Rejection number = 11)
Sample size for AQL 4% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 14 / Rejection number = 15)
See ISO9152, tables 3 and 4.
ANSWER: The certificate of conformity was only indicative because the batch was sold to a supplier without ASD-CERT qualification.
Concerning the qualification, the sampling is in compliance to the ISO9152.
? Agreed, but attention should be paid to future mfg batch (serial production) with Acceptance tests and associated sample sizes.
EN3381-080:
For ISO3452, do we speak about ISO 3452-1:2013, Corrected version 2014-05-01?
ANSWER: There are two dates in our version of this standard (see picture below). We wrote the first date and you the second but it seems we have the same standard.
? Agreed.
Bolts with no hole shall qualify bolt with holes if we consider mechanical, metallurgical and non-destructive tests. What about supplementary dimensions due to holes?
ANSWER: The choice of the worst case was realized to maximized the number of tests perform on the part during the qualification. Some features can remove some mechanical tests for example.
Furthermore, all the previous qualifications were validated with this kind of analogy.
? Agreed.
On Acceptance Test Report, 200 parts have been ordered.
What is the manufacturing batch size? Apparently, mfg batch quantity should be a little bit greater than 200.
For dimensions check, 40 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
For FPI, 50 bolts have been controlled if I am not mistaken.
ISO9152, table 3 specifies four different AQLs for characteristics: 0,065% for FPI and 1%, 2,5% and 4% for dimensions.
If we consider a mfg batch of 200 parts:
Sample size for AQL 0,065% = 200 parts (Acceptance number = 0 / Rejection number = 1)
Sample size for AQL 1% = 50 parts (Acceptance number = 1 / Rejection number = 2)
Sample size for AQL 2,5% = 32 parts (Acceptance number = 2 / Rejection number = 3)
Sample size for AQL 4% = 32 parts (Acceptance number = 3 / Rejection number = 4)
See ISO9152, tables 3 and 4.
ANSWER: The certificate of conformity was only indicative because the batch was sold to a supplier without ASD-CERT qualification.
Concerning the qualification, the sampling is in compliance to the ISO9152.
? Agreed, but attention should be paid to future mfg batch (serial production) with Acceptance tests and associated sample sizes.
Concerning the control of the optional features, they are controled in position and dimension in compliance with the standard in case of production batch. For example, for Split pin hole on EN3381 standard, AHG laboratory control the diameter (D6) and the position (L5).
? Agreed.
Best regards,
Julien
For sample size for Acceptance (in the future):
In qualifications 832 and 833, we have a specific AHG’s presentation about sampling attached in section “additional documents”.
This powerpoint presentation called “AHG Sampling plan”, slide 8 states that AHG will use ASQ-H1331.
First, as per SAE AS9138, clause 7.2, we have the following equivaleces:
“ANSI/ASQ Z1.4, which is equivalent to ISO 2859-1, JISZ9015-0 and JISZ9015-1, and GB/T 2828.1;”.
Then, ASQ-H1331 states that: “The c=0 plans in Table 1 are “associated” with the AQLs of ANSI Z1.4. In all of these plans, the protection afforded to the consumer is equal to or greater than the ANSI Z1.4 plans.”
“As discussed in this book, the c=0 plans were designed essentially to be equal or greater in consumer and average outgoing quality limit (AOQL) protection than the corresponding ANSI Z1.4 plans. ”
Thus, by considering AS9138, ANSI ASQ Z1.4 is equivalent to ISO2859-1 and customer protection is equal to or greater than ANSI ASQ Z1.4 by applying C=0 plans as per ASQ-H1331 (C=0 sampling plans).
Conlusion: agreed.
For all other AHG’s answers, they are acceptable. (no updates really necessary since AHG’s answers are clear).
Regards.
Julien